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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
157
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Posted - 2013.03.03 10:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:
First off getting the numbers straight a Neutron Blaster II uses
-0.8 Cap per sec / 0 Mag Stab
-0.9 Cap per sec / 1 Mag Stab
-1.0 Cap per sec / 2 Mag Stab
-1.1 Cap per sec / 3 Mag Stab
While a Heavy Pulse Laser II uses
-2.6 Cap per sec / 0 Heat Sink
-3.0 Cap per sec / 1 Heat Sink
-3.2 Cap per sec / 2 Heat Sink
-3.4 Cap per sec / 3 Heat Sink
I have fixed your numbers to reflect the actual weapons themselves, not the use on a ship with a 50% capacitor bonus to them.
This is the problem the Op is talking about.
Lasers use more than tripple the Cap of Blasters. This is because originally they were WTFOMGBBQ DPS. This Dps has since been significantly downpowered, yet the capacitor useage has been left the same.
The 50% cap use bonus is not a 'bonus'. It is a crutch left in place to deal with legacy stats on lasers which no longer serve a purpose. Without the 50% cap use, Lasers are virtually unusable on most Amarr ships, so people fit projectiles, or on the Prophecy they fit missiles. I haven't seen a single serious new prophecy fit suggesting using Lasers, it's all projectiles or missiles. Because its simply not sustainable as a laser boat without a cap use bonus. And that is bad. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
160
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Posted - 2013.03.04 04:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Harbie has issues itself, it's a mediocre ship and didn't get enough change to give it a role anywhere.
But that doesn't affect the laser issue in general, which is really the crux of the thread, people are getting tied down on this 'Third bonus for harbies' thing and not looking at fixing the real problem.
If you fold the 50% ship bonus into Lasers themselves, LASERS STILL USE THE MOST CAP OF ANY WEAPONS.
Bolded to make the point. They still use significantly more cap than the equivilent Hybrids while at -50% cap use.
So the 'bonus' should be folded into the weapon. Maybe at only 40% to reflect the fact a lot of people only train ships to lvl 4, while 5 is 'specialisation'. That then frees up a 'bonus' (Which isn't a bonus since it is required to use lasers on any ship which isn't pirate, you can 'just' use lasers on the pirate ships, but since they have half the guns for the same DPS, they have a 50% cap reduction bonus already in that) that can actually be something interesting.
As well as allowing ships like the Maller & Abbadon to be viable as laser ships without capping out or requiring twin cap boosters just to shoot guns. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
160
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 05:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
To mare wrote:what about ships like the hurricane who get only 1.3 bonus since the harby get a straight +10% on 6 turret and the hurricane waste 2x5% bonus (granted one is a rof and that the only reason i put 1.3 bonus) or what about the brutix who get only 1 useful bonus the 10% damage and the repair bonus its completely wasted since the ship perform much better as a shield gank boat than a armor repping bleeder.
The cane has two useful & effective bonuses, neither of which is 100% required simply to fit Projectiles, but are nice bonuses to those projectiles.
Btw, Lrn2mth. 2*5% rate of fire bonus + 25% damage = 1.66666.... bonus. So is actually a larger damage buff than the Harbinger has.
The Brutix (Infact a lot of Gallente ships) is known for having issues with the armour rep bonus being impractical most of the time except for very niche fits, hence the number of suggestions people make on that. So... bringing up a known problem ship as a counter argument to another ship having problems? Not seeing your point here.
The Harbinger that cap bonus is required to use lasers. It doesn't make them 'better' in any way, it actually lets them be used.
P.S. To the other poster above.... Omen has a cap use bonus as well, so using the Omen as a counter argument to 'Why lasers Cap is ok' really doesn't work. Imperial Navy Slicer (Which I assume is what you were talking about) has a built in cap reduction via the 25% turret damage per level bonus, The same as the Pirate ships do also since it's 2 turrets count for 4/4.5 turrets so it's at 'half effective cap useage'. And happens to be a Navy ship with only two small turrets.
So.... neither of those examples actually produce any meaningful statement that Laser Cap use is fine.
Now.... Show me the viable Laser Mallers & Abbadons & Prophecies. Rather than Projectile Mallers & Abbadons & HAM/HM prophecies |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
160
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 05:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
To mare wrote:
lasers have a built in damage bonus, if the cap usage get reduced also that damage bonus would be reduced, you really want that?
Lasers no longer have this built in damage buff. One of the CCP devs recently posted to say this buff had been removed.
And the fact that they get happily out DPSed by a lot of things kinda supports that. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
160
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 05:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:I fly at least as much Amarr as I do anything else and I don't support this for the harb or any other Amarr ships.
I read a thread similar to this some time ago that said all Amarr ships should get a 50% cap use role bonus and asked would the Abaddon really be overpowered if its cap wasn't so touchy? The short answer is yes. So ignoring the "where's X race's role bonus" threads which are 100% guaranteed to spawn in the wake of that decision there is just no reason for it. Amarr are not typically lacking compared to ships of other races to warrant second bonuses beyond what they have.
Amarr typically have stronger than average if not the strongest capacitors in each ship class available which goes a long way to mitigating the cap use of lasers, with decent skills the guns are not that big a strain and reducing the strain would just give that much more cap to use on everything else with my superior capacitor.
Reducing the base cap use of lasers is not a good option either or you risk running into an issue where kiting ships like Minmatar use lasers too because while projectiles are forgiving and at least partially effective at a huge variety or ranges no short range weapons can touch pulse/scorch for damage projection. On paper dps doesn't reflect this so much but scorch at optimal is usually the same as similar projectile turrets at optimal + falloff and therefore the projectile ship is doing ~50% of listed damage while the laser boat is doing ~100% with all else being equal.
Basically I feel like Amarr ships were balanced with the cap usage bonuses in mind and giving them something else would make them too good, especially in the hands of pilots with insane quantities of skill points. While in the short term it might make Amarr more appealing to low SP pilots there are people like myself who are approaching the stats you get in EFT with all level Vs loaded that would make you regret getting your way.
Whats wrong with Minmatar ships with lasers?
If Amarr ships with projectiles are fine that is......
If it's all fine & dandy for Amarr ships to have their standard fits be Projectiles, why is it not ok for certain Minmatar ships to fit Lasers as a standard fit
The argument you are attempting to employ goes both ways. As I said, maybe not a 50% cap reduction, but right now, Lasers use somewhere around 330% the cap that Hybrids do as a base cap useage. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
166
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 10:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
That statement has not fundamentally changed. The solution to problems with certain Amarr ships isn't to remove the cap bonus across the board, or add a third bonus. It's to ensure that the strengths of each weapon system counterbalance the drawbacks.
This is an ongoing iterative project and we're not going to get there for all weapon systems overnight, but I can fairly firmly state that we're not going to remove the laser cap use bonus from the Amarr flavor and we're not going to start giving them 3rd bonuses across the board.
My complaint with this statment is primarily as follows.
We are not suggesting changing the fact that Lasers are the highest Cap weapons. What we are suggesting is that laser cap useage should not be more than three times greater than it's comparable hybrid (In some classes, haven't checked all but fairly sure it remains that bad if not worse in most classes at least.)
But somewhere in a more reasonable ball park.
What you appear to be saying is 'We refuse to consider tweaking Cap useage down in return for decreased cap bonuses on the hulls that have them'
While I certainly agree with your vision of lasers as a high cap use weapon, their current state makes them non viable weapons on a large number of Amarr Hulls, some of which are even bonused for lasers, just not sensible to fit them as projectiles produce better actually useable DPS. A change to drop the overall cap useage down on unbonused hulls, while decreasing the bonus on bonused hulls, would make these ships then capable of sensibly supporting lasers as their ship bonuses say they should.
And this needs some work sooner rather than later. |
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